Talk:Banjo-Kazooie

I'm betting the debug icons would have showed up in levels, marking things like camera points and sources of sound effects. It might be possible to make them show up again, either by enabling a debug mode or by changing the model pointers of these invisible objects. ⬡ 03:48, 14 June 2012 (EDT)

"Unused Gnawty Scenario" section - keep or delete?
I think the "Unused Gnawty Scenario" described on the page sounds an awful lot like a glitch rather than part of any unused game scenario. I imagine that tunnel is only there because all seasons of CCW share most of their level model with bits and pieces added/cut out, and the rock is likely the same breakable rock used in summer in order to avoid having to store data for both a breakable and non-breakable version on the cart. As such, I don't think it belongs on the page. I'm asking here before deleting it though: do we want to keep it, or is there agreement that it is indeed a bug rather than unused content? Will-T 02:54, 26 October 2012 (EDT)
 * It is still an interesting piece of trivia if anything. Don't delete it. Mammal Sauce 13:26, 26 October 2012 (EDT)

Kirkhope beta themes - what's the situation?
Should these unused music tracks be detailed on the Banjo-Kazooie page? Grant Kirkhope's website links to an area with beta tracks from Banjo-Kazooie which were scrapped in development, notably beta themes for Treasure Trove Cove, Freezeezy Peak and the theme for a scrapped level named Prickly Pear Island. I'm pretty 100% you all know about this anyways, but even though they're not in the game's coding, I figured that since the composer of the game's soundtrack has acknowledged their existence, their purpose and the MP3 for them, and since they're a part of the game's development, they should be included. I'd add them to the article myself, but I'm not 100% on the staff's stance and so felt the need to ask. That, and err, I'm not entirely sure how the audio files on this site work embarrassingly. --Crashandcortex 11:38, 27 May 2013 (EDT)
 * According to the rules, if it isn't in the game's coding, we don't add it here. Sorry. --AquaBat 12:07, 27 May 2013 (EDT)
 * Erm...more specifically, at the moment we're not really set up to archive things like this. A "prerelease materials" category has been discussed for a while now, though, so once that's set up, we can properly archive them. --BMF54123 18:28, 27 May 2013 (EDT)
 * Right. What he said. My bad. --AquaBat 22:20, 27 May 2013 (EDT)
 * Ahhhh righty. That definitely makes a lot more sense than just lumping everything all into one article. Many thanks for the citation! That being said, there are a number of unused fanfares that ARE within the game's code, they should probably be on the article. I'd import them myself but seeing as I'm not aware of how the sound player on TCRF works, the best I could really do is add the links onto the article directly, which I don't feel is the right way to do things. First one sounds like a beta "life loss" or "game over" theme, the other 2 appear to just be generic jingles (the first sounds a little like the jingle that plays when you open a level after finishing a Jiggy puzzle, the second.... I have no idea, but it's used for when you jump into Dingpot in the sequel if that matters) --Crashandcortex 01:50, 28 May 2013 (EDT)

More beta goodness
Stuff I found in my hacking notes:

---The Rare Witch Project--- BK GS

HONEYCOMB EXPLOSION It's unknown what would have triggered this, though it most likely was a pad.

GameShark: 81366F20 0050 81366F24 042F

RANDOM HONEYCOMB Similar to the honeycombs in Banjo Tooie, this would be collected like a normal honeycomb and randomly choose a honeycomb level for you (unlike Tooie where you choose it yourself).

GameShark: 81366CA4 0054 Flower Glitch: In Click Clock Wood in Spring, Plop a few eggs into the hole in the garden surrounded by fences. A flower will grow, which will later give you a Jiggy. Plop more eggs in. The flower will grow again! The petals spread out on the ground, and if you already have the Jiggy, the game will freeze. 8036C4EE 00?? Return To Game icon mod (includes voice) 01~03 Mr. Vile (freezes) 04 Banjo (default) 05 Witch 06 Jiggy with eyes 07 Tooty 08 Note with eyes (freezes) 09 Jiggy with eyes (this may be from the text when you get your 1st Jiggy, while the other is from the menu) 0A Empty Honey (freezes) 0B Clock (Mr. Vile voice)* 0C Banjo (freezes) (maybe from text) 0D~0E Kazooie (freezes) 0F Bottles (freezes) I would like to get more digits, but it usually freezes, so it's quite annoying having to reboot with the keycode and all. I have been trying to hack a text icon mod so I could get the digits, but I have nothing so far.
 * This is not the clock from the totals screen! It looks like a beta icon, perhaps used in place of the Jiggy for the View Totals option.

813831D0 05A2 Weird box appears like a kalidescope (I'm sure that's spelled wrong), but at normal speed, unlike the codes before! I don't know what the heck it is, but it is cool! Come to think of it, didn't someone hack a code like this for GE007 that turned out to be a debug menu? 813831D2 6512 Same as above

These codes should all be for V1.0.

Also apparently there's a list of song names in memory, that might hint toward the existence of a music test menu. ⬡ 18:08, 10 June 2013 (EDT)

Unused themes - are they in the memory?
Grant Kirkhope has released a slew of unused music tracks which he claims to have found on a Banjo-Kazooie ROM. It includes Advent, Mumbo's Raindance and both CCW themes (which were labeled as House Summer and House Autumn respectably), so I actually feel these to hold ground in terms of being within a Banjo-Kazooie ROM, unlike the Prickly Pear Island link I gave before. There also appear to be a fair amount of tracks that would correspond for Banjo-Tooie as well, leaving me to believe this actually crosses over into both Kazooie and Tooie's pages. Unfortunately I really am not sure of how to analyse the interior workings of a ROM to search for tidbits such as these, so if anybody's ready and willing to check then that'd be amazing. I'm sorry to be such a burden with regards to not being able to flush out the information directly from a cartridge, but I'll provide my input on each of the songs for some extra information if they are indeed within the game's data:

Atlantis: Presumably intended for Tooie, general beat seems slightly faster than the final version and there's a piece a minute and a half in (specifically 1:39) which definitely isn't used in the final version, likely due to being a bit too "happy" for the setting.

Babe: Haven't the foggiest what this could've been used for, not even Kirkhope knows where it would've been used. Seems like it'd be a leftover from Dream if I had to make a guess though.

Big Foot: While most people assume that this would be a theme for Bigboot on the Icy Side of Hailfire Peaks, I personally feel it's a very early remnant from Banjo Kazooie or maybe even Dream, as the boss and event tracks in Banjo Tooie are remixes of the level themes, and this sounds like absolutely no level in the game whatsoever. Perhaps Bigfoot could've been a boss on Freezeezy Peak before the level's theme was decided? (and Freezeezy Peak was one of the last tracks to get its theme finalised, having not one but TWO beta incarnations, making this theory somewhat plausible)

Boss1: A very interesting track that incorporates both elements from the final Gruntilda battle and the mine cart level from Jungle Japes in DK64 of all things. Name and instrumentation make it very likely a beta theme for Gruntilda, with the initial beat carried over to Donkey Kong 64 in the Mine Cart level.

Elvking: Beautiful yet ambiguous theme that I can only assume is a remnant from Project Dream. Sections sound like they were carried over to the credits sequence of Banjo Tooie though.

Giant: A rather comical sounding theme making great use of the deep brass characteristic to Rare. The beat sounds somewhat similar to Grunty Industries to me, but based on the name, it may have been yet another leftover from Project Dream, perhaps the theme for the Giant's Lair. This would parallel Gruntilda's Lair, as you occasionally hear Grunty's laughter in her lair's theme just like you hear (presumably) the Giant's laughter here.

Jungle1: Explicitly stated to be the original track for Mumbo's Mountain by Kirkhope, back when the level was more like a conventional jungle. I swear I've heard the initial beat from another Rare game but I can't pinpoint on what it is exactly. I wish this was actually used somewhere, it sounds absolutely wonderful :/

Lost: Sounds like an early version of DK Island from DK64, and is confirmed by Kirkhope to be precisely that. Seems the theme was initially intended for Banjo-Kazooie at some stage.

Lost1: An early version of Mayahem Temple from Banjo Tooie, lacking the Mumbo voiceovers and much of the background instruments. Also contains many parts of the Angry Aztec theme from Donkey Kong 64 interestingly, another theme which was likely hanging around for a while before being used and completed in DK64.

Ogres: Leftover from Project Dream which (presumably) involved Edison being chased by ogres. Not much I can say about it, other than a short cue from the theme appears to have been used in the Gruntilda theme, it reminds me a little bit of the Army Dillo theme from DK64 as well.

Temple: Sounds VERY similar to Fungi Forest in DK64, and seeing the evidence proving that Fungi Forest was to be in Banjo-Kazooie before being scrapped, this appears to have been the original theme for the level! Amazing how the unused history of the game happens to come full circle!

Freezeezy: This was shown at the link I provided above when asking about beta themes from Kirkhope's website. Allegedly according to Kirkhope it may actually reside within BK's data, but this just may be from his composition recordings.

Treasure Trove Cove: See above.

Another Freezy: Another beta theme for Freezeezy Peak, seems a tad more completed than the first, adding a backing percussion into the song.

There are also a number of unused sound effects here too:

Extended Jiggy: Pretty self-explanatory.

Jig Short: The Jiggy obtaining theme, only without the additional fanfare at the end.

Magic: Sounds like an extended version of the Note collecting sound, similarly to the egg/feather maximisers behind the note doors prior to fighting Gruntilda. A possible note maximiser? Or based on the name, it could've also been the original sound used for a Mumbo transformation.

Quit: I've heard this theme a lot on Youtube so I know this is DEFINITELY in the data, but now that it has a name assigned to it, its function is a little clearer. Seems that like Banjo Tooie, there was to be a "Game Over" fanfare played when you chose the "Save & Quit" option as opposed to a fully fledged cutscene.

--Crashandcortex 14:07, 1 July 2013 (EDT)


 * It's been confirmed by Coolboyman that the only unused tracks in the ROM are ones that have already been documented. All other tracks from this album were imported from MIDIs that Grant had found on a hard drive. -M64m 23:34, 1 July 2013 (EDT)

... Oh. Disregard everything I said then. Apologies for my insistence. --Crashandcortex 01:51, 2 July 2013 (EDT)


 * However, didn't Kirkhope say he found these MIDI files inside an early BK ROM? If so, and Kirkhope wasn't mistakenly referring to a project repository of different assets, maybe we could arrange an exchange of the ROM? Even if not for public access, then only for preservation and curiosity sake. Grant has been super laid-back and supportive of the fan community and our interest in early work in the series, as have other members who've worked on the N64 days of Rareware--just look at the Conker's Bad Fur Day developer walkthrough currently posted on youtube as an example! --Celice 06:06, 2 July 2013 (EDT)


 * From what I understand, Grant only provided some MIDI files to Coolboyman and did no coding or ROM work himself. See: http://rarewarecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=145471 -M64m 12:02, 2 July 2013 (EDT)


 * Celice wasn't referring to Kirkhope doing any coding/ROM work – the reference was to a possible claim by Kirkhope that he found the MIDI files in an early Banjo-Kazooie ROM. -WarioBarker 20:24, 2 July 2013 (EDT)


 * If you actually checked the source I provided, you'd know that Grant does not have an early version of the ROM. -M64m 11:38, 3 July 2013 (EDT)


 * Firstly, there is no need to be so confrontational in your tone; secondly, there are inconsistent claims about whether or not there was a ROM, and whether or not it was an earlier build of the game. As you can read on Kirkhope's own page and his own words, he claims these tunes were found on "the BK ROM", whatever that entails, which is why I suggested possibly contacting Kirkhope for more information or clarification on his wording. Here is the page: http://grantkirkhope.bandcamp.com/album/bk-betas . Please try to be more charitable in the future.--Celice 04:54, 4 July 2013 (EDT)


 * And likewise, looking through that very thread (again, mind you), there is a repost of one of Kirkhope's older tweets suggesting an older version of the game was being ripped for Kirkhope by another person. Whether that means Kirkhope has access to this ROM, or whether only the music and sound portions were dumped for him, is another question worth pursuing. Post: http://rarewarecentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=145378&postcount=48 . --Celice 05:04, 4 July 2013 (EDT)


 * Grant's wording of things can be...lacking, at times. What he means is that Adam (Coolboyman) imported the MIDI files he found into a retail copy of the ROM. MIDI files are versatile, and can use a variety of sound fonts to play the song. Coolboyman imported the MIDIs into the ROM to give the original sound as they would have been heard in-game using the Banjo-Kazooie sound font. Furthermore, I explicitly inquired about the quote on Grant's Bandcamp page, and Coolboyman responded with the post I linked to. I apologize if I came off as confrontational, but I feel like it was clear that these songs can't be documented on TCRF at this point in time. -M64m 11:27, 4 July 2013 (EDT)


 * Well, even what you're trying to clarify is itself inconsistently stated: whence did Coolboyman get these MIDI files? If they are from Kirkhope's portfolio of previous work, then no, they ought not be included in the wiki--at least, in the current intention of the wiki (there's always been talk of expanding the wiki to cover other development assets and information related to early game development, for the purpose of preservation). However, if Coolboyman found the MIDIs stored on the final BK ROM but in an unused manner (padding, forgot to be removed, whatever you like), then it ought to be kosher for the purposes of the wiki. This seems unlikely, but I think the context of these MIDIs and whence they came should be clearly stated if we're going to justify the exclusion or inclusion of them on the wiki. Just so everyone is on the same page :) --Celice 15:58, 4 July 2013 (EDT)


 * You can contact Coolboyman directly if you're absolutely concerned about the origin of the MIDI files. If the songs were in the ROM, they would've been documented on the page along with the ones that were already discovered. http://tcrf.net/Banjo-Kazooie#Unused_Music
 * Yes, there were talks about documenting content that was cut and not on a ROM, but nothing has been decided. This is why I said the songs "can't be documented on TCRF at this point in time." Anywho, I think I'm done here for now. -M64m 16:14, 4 July 2013 (EDT)


 * Not necessarily: the songs may be in the ROM but stored in a manner differently than the songs used: as I said, perhaps they were left in by mistake, in a .zip or something like that--it's easy to discover valid data that was stored in an unconventional or out-of-the-way manner, that otherwise is easy to miss. It's not as if something like that hadn't happened before, and had been discovered. What it sounds like to me is that Kirkhope sent these older MIDI works to Coolboyman, who then got them inserted into the ROM, and that the MIDIs were simply Kirkhope's working compositions, not anything in a ROM release. So no, it isn't necessarily that "if the songs were in the ROM, they would've been documented on the page along with the ones that were already discovered". Accuracy before assumptions, and all that stuff. --Celice 16:37, 4 July 2013 (EDT)