Talk:Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door/Regional Differences

Peeka and Lahla

So on Mariowiki, an ip just changed our Peeka and Lahla articles saying that both of them had the rabbit ears in the JP version, using this video as proof. I don't know if this is a revision thing or something that's totally slipped under the radar until now (and since the video only shows the parlor one, their descriptions may have been switched by mistake for all I know). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:39, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Looked into this since I have the Japanese version on hand, and yeah apparently they do both have bunny ears. ([1], [2]) --Alley (talk) 20:55, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Very good then, I have edited the page thusly. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 05:25, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Vivian

"However, all other translations refer to Vivian as a transgender woman.

Does the editor of the article think the definition of 'transgender' is 'looks like a girl but is actually a boy'? Because there's literally nothing in Goombella's tattle or the party description that refers to him as a 'transgender woman'. Other characters use a masculine pronounce to refer to him. Yes, Vivian refers to himself using a feminine first-person pronoun, but there are also gay characters in manga and anime that do this that aren't transgender women. ValjeanLafitte (talk)

Vivian herself refers to herself as a woman. She is a stronger source than Goombella's tattle or any other character. If I say "I am a woman" but everyone else in the room says "this is a man who looks like a woman," then everyone else in the room is wrong. Hope this clears things up.--Fawfulthegreat64 (talk) 07:42, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Unsubstantiated speculation in the summary of Vivian's identity in the Japanese original script

Disclaimer: I have attempted to address this perceived speculation through an edit previously, but had my changes reverted. I honestly had not expected my edit to be controversial, but if it is, it seems better if I propose it on this talk page so it can be discussed.

My issue with the current summary text is the latter part of the following sentence (italicized):

    In the Japanese version, Vivian identifies and presents as female, but is described as actually being an effeminate-looking boy, aligning with common media depictions of transgender characters at the time while not explicitly referring to her as such.

This essentially dismisses the ambiguity of the conflicting accounts in-game described prior that by implying Vivian is likely transgender. This is not sourced to anything in the game or outside of it, it's speculation, which as per TCRF's rules, is not allowed. As that page says: For any assertions, evidence must be provided. Unless there is something like an interview with one of the original developers of TTYD where they say they always intended Vivian to be transgender (if so, we should add that as a source), I don't see how this assertion can be substantiated, so the sentence should be changed.

I'll provide evidence below why Vivian's identity is at minimum ambiguous. All dialogue sources mentioned are already on the page, as the section on Vivian notes the in-game dialogue. Any other sources will be linked to:

• Vivian says to be part of the Shadow Sisters. Beldam responds and rebukes this claim, stating Vivian is a man.
• Goombella's tattle concludes Vivian is a boy.
• Menu information (the partition description) says Vivian is a boy.

I think the last point is especially meaningful: You could make the case that for a statement about someone's identity, opinions of other characters (even Goombella, whose tattle information is otherwise accurate throughout the game) are not valid, but menu information is directly from the developers. Paper Mario is not a game with diagetic menu text, meaning the information in there is not implied to come from imperfect sources such as an in-game character who could be biased or lack information. If an in-game character claimed to have traveled all over the world, but the menu information rebutted them by saying they've actually never left their hometown, the character's claims would be noted, but the menu information would be the truth. By that logic, Vivian's case is no different, and the menu information would be leading.

Feminine boys/men (also called otokonoko), including some who call themselves girls/women, have also long been a subculture and trope in Japanese media, so Vivian being one would not be seen as odd in Japan.

Circumstantially, in a sequel (Super Paper Mario), there are 'catch cards' that you can collect: Little cards with stats, a picture, and a description. There are catch cards for characters from previous games too, including Vivian (who has only appeared in Paper Mario: TTYD). The Japanese script explicitly uses the word otokonoko to describe Vivian in their catch card (again menu information, not from in-game characters), which supports Vivian as being a feminine boy/man in the Japanese original game of TTYD.

I hope that this at minimum shows Vivian's identity to be ambiguous in the original Japanese game. If so, I believe it is better to phrase the original sentence such that we acknowledge this ambiguity, but leave out speculation. This would be similar to how for example the Mariowiki page describes Vivian in the original Japanese game as well:

   In the Japanese version of the original game, as well as some of its foreign localizations, Vivian is inconsistently depicted as either a transgender woman or a male-identifying cross-dresser

Since TCRF is more focused on primary sources, I think the original sentence currently on the page is a good basis (describing in-game dialogue), but I suggest changing the sentence like so:

    In the Japanese version, Vivian identifies and presents as female, but is described by other characters and by the party description text as actually being an effeminate-looking boy.

This way we describe the ambiguity, but everything in the sentence is factual and sourced by in-game dialogue presented below (already part of the section on the current page).

KapuKing (talk) 09:41, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

The catch card in Super Paper Mario uses "オトコのコ", which in this specific context just means "boy". 男の娘 meaning "femboy" or "crossdresser" was incredibly niche jargon at the time and there is precisely zero chance that Nintendo intended this meaning, nor would anyone playing the game at the time likely take it as such.

No part of The Thousand Year Door, as far as I am aware, explicitly assigns the identity of "crossdresser" to Vivian, or goes into any more detail than "a boy who looks like a girl". She presents as feminine, and does not like it when she's called a man. This doesn't really fit a "crossdressing male who is ok with being identified as male" reading of the text, whereas "trans woman" does nicely fit. Mycophobia (talk) 22:14, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Vivian in PAL Remake Versions

Could anyone chime in with if non english localizations of the remake used their original script or translated the new revised english script? I own a german copy and can check in that one soon.

Itd be useful to have info for French, Spanish and Italian too. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Eightcoins (talk • contribs)

Localization Differences With Minor Text Alterations

Ghost T.'s Diary

In the International version, if the player wants to read the diary, even though ill advised, the yes/no prompt has more flavor for the yes/no option.

Japanese	International

66th Annual Quirk Quiz

The host of the 66th Annual Quirk Quiz makes a pun as an answer for the question about how many feet total. The pun varies by region. In Japanese, the pun is Japan (日本). In English, the pun is defeat. Spanish, French, Italian, and German the pun is something else.

Japanese	International

Not sure why this is being removed. If there are more localization changes like this, maybe we can repurpose this? Second guessing 66th Annual Quirk Quiz too... --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) 04:30, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

My issue is that changes like these are fairly common in Treehouse games, and you're going to burn yourself out and/or clutter the page (which is already quite large and in need of reorganization) if you were to try and find all of them. Case in point: when I yanked the Ghost T. entry, I checked a J/E text dump to see how many other rewritten yes/no choices there were... and counted around 35. Do you really want to do this 35 more times? That's like 70 screenshots, just for a subset of a subset of dialogue. If you want to extrapolate that to the rest of the game, then you're going to wind up posting a large chunk of the script, because Mario RPGs like to play fast and loose with dialogue. A better way to handle common stuff like this (IMO) would be to make a general note of it in a bullet point or table somewhere with a couple of examples. (See Koopa Koot Responses to Favors for something similar to what I mean in PM64.)

The Quirk Quiz thing... not sure. That might count as a "region-specific joke", might not. I personally wouldn't include it, because rewriting a pun to fit the target language is just part of the localization process, but someone else might feel differently. If we're talking Quirk Quiz changes, then Luigi's Pants -> Pickle Stone is way more notable to me, because it's so random and inexplicable.--Alley (talk) 11:12, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

My expertise and contribution types are better suited to screenshots and texture extraction. I don't have access to text dumps that you do. I barely understand beyond the extraction of contents of a GameCube/Wii disc. I think the inclusion of 35 altered yes/do dialog should still be mentioned, minus the remaining ~70 screenshots screenshots then. The Ghost T. example was interesting for a different reason. I mean, for unused text, we just keep it a text dump, per policy (#2), but have the images of an example in-game, like the other pictures of unused text. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) 22:47, 14 October 2024 (UTC)