User:Missile/Prerelease:Barkley 2
{{prerelease}
To do:
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While the only parts of the game that are even remotely close to completion were the starting town and sewer level, they didn't spend all that time on nothing...
Contents
Development Timeline
2012
- Nov - The kickstarter is live, it would meet it's goal before the month is out.
2013
- June 28 - Linux build promised
- August 15 - The game is showcased at Indie Megabooth during a Pax expo with the title "BARKLEY 2: QUEKLAIN NO VENGEANT". Only a trailer was shown at the event, based on an image of the booth provided by the TalesofGame account. The game would reappear at this event up until 2015.
- December - Initial projected release date. The game is delayed "a healthy margin" on the 9th. Never again would they mention a (real) release date. The post also boasts about all the gun permutations and how they have many more by the end of the project.
2014
- June 16 - The game is STILL in pre-alpha, according to talesofgame, with promises to have the real alpha out by July for a florida convention. BBall Tactics is also shown off for the first time, with promises of ports to ios, Android and Windows Phone of all things in addition to the Mac/Linux/Windows PC builds.
2015
- March 11th - All gameplay features and systems are "fully implemented" according to this kickstarter update. Though the final prototype is still said to be missing certain mechanics.
- August 28th - A playable demo appears to have been at PAX this year, showcasing an earlier version of the sewers.
2016
- May 18th - "We are currently piling on content, NO FUCKING LIE.". The first major slump in updates happens, having not posted anything since Sept of the previous year. Despite claiming the gameplay was fully implemented over a year ago, apparently the programmer is STILL working on them.
- May 2016 - It would seem that a massive reorganization was done on the project during the month, according to an image left inside the source code labeled "BeforeAndAfterTrim.png"
- Late 2016 - This rough timeframe is said to be when key developers Bort and Cboyardee left the project. While the initial reasons for this are personal, they would choose not return to the project due to the insurmountable work needed to be done.
2017
- Feburary 5th - The game's sprite artist is apparently only just now finishing all the 2000+ gun sprites, with NPCs and such still needing to be done.
- October 6th - The final Kickstarter update for over an entire year is posted. It yet again boasts about adding yet more features, this time being the fishing mechanic.
2018
- According to developer comments, little would be achieved this year, since as of last year the game was abandoned by almost all of it's staff, leaving only the ToG studio head bhroom and a lone programmer called Paperjack.
2019
- June 2nd - A post is made by developer GZ on the Something Awful forums, effectively stating that the project was in tatters and would never come out.
- June 3rd - The TalesofGame account would comment on it shortly after on their twitter and Kickstarter, detailing the state of the project and how far it was from the finish line, but refusing to admit defeat.
- June 16th - The game is now at a point where it is stable (enough) for a public release, resulting in the Janky Demo being posted to Kickstarter.
- - at the same time, a bug reporting section is opened on github, with the first issue being "Finish the damn game".
- July 5th - As it had not been incorporated into the game yet, BBall Tactics(or Tactics: Ballre) is released on Kickstarter.
2021
- June 11th - Time of death. Almost two years of radio silence later, a google link to the source code is posted on itch.io alongside an summation of what went wrong. The game was simply too far from completion.
Kickstarter Campaign
On [November 28?] TalesofGames would create the kickstarter campaign, along with uploading the above video containing a few snippets of the earliest build we're ever likely to see. At the same time, they would advertise the game on places such as Something Awful, posting screenshots of the game
The kickstarter
PAX
2013
Despite the game being so dire that it only contained ONE finished cutscene for years after the fact [link according to a developer], the first outward thing Tales of Game did after receiving the cash was organize promotional booths at PAX. This year however did not seem to contain a playable build however, as photos showed a hastily made up logo and title(under the name BARKLEY 2: QUEKLAIN NO VENGEANT, a joke title.) and a merely a tablet that played the following video:
Changes include:
- The room the sewer zaubermaster is in was greatly expanded in the final build.
- Enemies from the Power Plant are actually used, albeit in a different area. They are fully functional in the final build, but aren't placed anywhere.
- Wilcy is outside in an alley, in the final build of the game he was moved to his own apartment.
- The area where you find fallen gordo is vastly different
- Hud is bare bones by this point, lacking critical elements such as the HP total and GLAMP meter, though strangely, the "MENU" and "CANDY" options seen in the kickstarter pitch were removed.
2015
"THE PROMISE HAS BEEN MADE"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsneVykvjlU On August 24th, 2015 a joke trailer was released, proclaiming that the game would be released on November 11th, 2023.
Radio Silence
Fallout
The game has been quiet for over a year at this point, it would end up being the second longest pause between updates thus far from October 2017 to June 2019 when on June 11th, Something Awful user Horatio(alt name GZ) posted the following:
This opened the floodgates for the entire development staff to chip in with comments in the thread, starting with cboyardee:
Hey guys, this is Chef Boyardee, one of the writers and musicians for the game, and I was one of the original Barkley 1 guys. Barkley 2 was our dream game. When we asked for $30k and received $120k, it felt like a mandate to go absolutely bonkers and make the game far, far larger and more convoluted than it actually needed to be (and as we learned, than we were more capable of making). To talk about all of our inspirations is to basically give you a laundry list of multi-million dollar Square-Enix RPGs with teams of hundreds of guys - so who WOULDN'T believe a bunch of dudes in their dad's basement could make it? We moved into bhroom and bort's dad's basement and got to work. We went absolutely nuts with scope, and planned out a massive game that, in reality, would have taken far more resources than we had. I'll give you an example: Barkley 2 had a 24 hour time system. As you completed quests and events in the game, the time would pass and new events would open. In reality, what this meant was that we had to make new content for each in-game hour. This is an awesome idea, but even for all the content we made, it was not feasible for our limited crew. Work was abound with stories like this - we dreamed and attempted all sorts of crazy systems, thinking that we had the experience and ability of Square's A-team. I stopped working on the game when my mom became ill and passed away abruptly. It's hard to talk about, so I won't. I wanted to go back, but the longer I stayed away, the more difficult it became, first because it was apparent that this project was just too ambitious and that what we needed was scope control, and second, it was the hardest thing in the world to admit failure. Failure, not just to the people I was beholden to, the people who had misplaced their faith in my ability to make this massive, sprawling game, but to the people I worked with. I love, deeply, everyone who worked on Barkley. I love GZ, Laz, bort, bhroom, bisse, Konix, Frankie, Neon, everyone who ever tried to help this madcap dream a reality. And I didn't know how to say I was sorry, or that I'd failed. My regret is that I could't do that. I am sorry, everyone. That said, I'm extremely proud of the work we did on the game, all of us. I think that everyone who worked on this project are among the best out there. The jokes, the world, the coding, the design, the art - it's awesome. I think the writing and music I did is some of my best work. There is nobody on the team who deserves more praise than GZ, who was the only voice of reason during all of this. It's to him that I'm most sorry. As far as money goes, although I was never the money dude, it was all used to my knowledge pretty responsibly to hire contractors. At the beginning of the project, I think we all took $1000 for food and expenses and stuff, and then another $1000 for the same a while later. The company also took a $10,000 loan from my dad which I paid back with an absurd 20% interest. So at least for me, this endeavor netted me a whopping -$10,000. I'd say the only wasteful thing we did with money was take the game to PAX, which really was an amazing experience and at least people got to play the game there. It was met with an awesome reception, especially our booth, which involved bhroom dressing as a wizard and acting out our character creation - which I contend is still the best ever. I think we were just too young and too ambitious and I want to say we tried to fly too close to the sun, but I don't think we ever took off. What we have is great, but I failed. And I'm sorry. I don't know what I can do to at least partially make things right, but I welcome suggestions.
[find the part of the thread this was posted in and link]
these would soon turn somewhat vitriolic the longer it went, but for the most part three key factors would emerge from this: 1.) That the game was too big in scope to ever be reasonably completed
Me and GZ talked a lot about how to bring this thing to completion over the years, and if it even could be completed, especially near the end of 2018 before it all fell apart. We both agreed that drastic measures and cuts were needed. Had GZ been given the helm it would have taken us year or two years of work to get it done, with a lot of cuts made. With the rate of work being done on this since me and GZ left it would take literal centuries to complete. This is not a hyperbole. The amount of code that needs to be typed in there, the amount of writing that needs to be done, the amount of graphics and audio that need to be figured out is staggering, and the GIT log has these gaps of several days and weeks, almost a month, when no work whatsoever is done. When there is an entry in GIT it's small potato stuff, something you can do in 15 minutes at most.
2.) That the project lead bhroom steadfastly refused to scale down the project, resulting in them clashing with the developers constantly:
Hey bort. What does it tell you when strangers can tell that both you and bhroom really have no idea what you're talking about? You couldn't even read this thread correctly. Your version of events aren't accurate either. Neither you or bhroom could be reasoned with. You should have never had any authority on this project via design and neither should Liam via control. Yet you think bhroom should have control over how the game proceeds going forward when I was unable to continue "working with" him? The options on the table were: Me and Laz take control, or bhroom holds on the game with no ability or plan to make the game happen. He's had all this time to make this game happen and failed. But you thought it was a fair compromise when bhroom asked me for a design document and road map that he had to approve of? Why would I jump through those hoops for the honor of me and Laz to finish the mess you guys started? I'll repeat: I'm not interested in what that clown has to say. An offer was even floated of: Me and Laz get 1 year to finish the game. If we don't, bhroom gets all control back plus the progress we made. Guess what? That was rejected too. Do you really think my fued with bhroom went from 0 to 100? Me and Liam got along fine for a very long time as you already know because he did push for work to get done. I was not under a spell. It wasn't until learning what this project truly is that I understood work I previously had done was pointless or not needed for this game to move forward. Any work I did was offset by more work added to "keep to the vision". It escalated very quickly because I realize Liam had always been lying to me about having control when I tried to limit this nonsense. It's not hard to understand. This started falling apart when I told him that I would continue working on the game with Laz, and he could do map tweaks and any writing that he felt like. Do you know what he told me? He has no interest in doing any of that without having control over the direction of the game. I specifically mentioned tons of quests in the game that needed to be finished. I said he could do stuff like the wedding quest, and he responded with "gently caress the wedding quest". He didn't care about getting work done. He just wanted to be the ideas guy and have this game be this mystical vision he had. Liam is not a realible narrator because he lies. Neither are you because you have been fed second hand information by bhroom or largely been absent from the project. So why throw your two cents in on this? Also man, you're prediction of me isn't very good either. I do have something against you. You abandoned Barkley 1, then Barkley 2, then you didn't go to bat for me when there was a final effort made to try and salvage this game. That's lovely of you. Do I hold bad blood for eternity of this? No. I stopped caring... Back in January! Read the thread better to find out why I posted now. Take some criticism, have some humility, and realize it's way easier for you to "be cool" with me than it is for me to "be cool" with you because you've never made the situation better.
3.) That work on the game has trickled to a halt as the result of this.
When I read the update and saw all that bullpuck I horked. I did take a quick glance at the very short list of GIT items since the beginning of 2019 to double-check if Johnny Appleseed had indeed come down the chimney and finished the game for him. I didn't see a single piece of work made towards improving combat, so it's in the same state as it was when GZ and I left, AKA in dire straits. The "bosses" are as follows: a reskinned cybergremlin (which is the most basic no thrills enemy), a guy with missing sprites who walks extremely slowly and pokes you with a rod if he gets close (spoilers: he doesn't get close, and I think if you approach him from a vertical direction he can't even reach you), catfish queen who shakes and jumps around in place with balls flying out of her, a plant in the middle of the swamp that doesn't do anything, a sprite of a minotaur statue and the prototype robot you made years ago. There are of course the Duergars too, who run around until they get stuck on walls. There is also the Running Man(tis) which me and GZ ripped off from Metal Gear 2, and while he does indeed function, it's a stretch to call him a boss. The normal enemies are more functional but calling them robust and intelligent is extremely questionable. They are all work in progress to some extent, some a lot more than others.
[TalesofGame response here]
Cut Content
One of the kickstarter posts goes into great detail regarding the state of quests. Mentioning the pains of figuring this stuff out [they originally used some real time system that made tons of permutations to the point of untenability] [cut quests here, there's at least two, but not much info was given about them.]
as well as two areas:
- Death Tower
There was a boss idea for the death tower and we even had some sprites drawn up for it, but it would have taken combat to get to a stage where we were making boss prototypes or Enemy Types that were stable in order to justify adding it in. There was a devised but uncoded tabletop-rpg simulated “battle” at the top of the tower. It would have been cool.
Death Tower appears in the debug's Teleport menu in the final build, but can't be warped to as there isn't any maps created for it.
- Al Akihabara
This was a desert town hidden within the Swamps. Most every idea from this town was either cut or migrated over to other ideas. It was a funny idea, but just never was effectively worked on.
What appears to be a reference to Al Bhed from Final Fantasy X. It's removal unfortunately leaves the already content starved swamps with nothing but a single quest to it.
End of the line
What follows this is the longest period of silence the project ever saw, almost a full two years between updates. However, on June 11th, 2021 developer Paperjack would finally break that silence... Only to call the time of death of the game. In this itch.io post he outlines more or less their understanding of the situation prior to their arrival:
Combining the burnout and forcing themselves to work for years, what inevitably happened was an explosion. I don't want to give names - neither do I know them, nor have worked with them - but it is a natural result of the environment that was created. I do not blame or accuse them of anything other than giving their best, I just honestly think that it was unavoidable. Everyone was tired, burned out and penniless: the best kind of situation to ruin friendships and turn disagreements into hostilities. Small slights keep piling up and there’s no good experiences to wipe them away. Marriages get ruined for far less. I come in the picture just after the explosion (or implosion?) happened, fresh like a flower and ignorant of the drama, and just concentrated on releasing the demo.
As well as what finally did the game in, though there is no surprises here:
After we released the demo, I looked back at the whole project: the original GM2 project is massive and there's so much remaining that, for me, is unfeasible to complete it without a budget or completely rescoping the project. I selfishly gave the latter a few shots, unsuccessfully. As more time passed without me or anyone touching the project, I realized that B2 had no future as it is right now.
The project as it was for the past 4 years before death was just a sole developer trying to accomplish what a team of paid developers spent years working around the clock couldn't even hope to accomplish. You can really see this if you look into the state of the source code that was released on that page. While the game itself is in a more advanced state than you would think, going as far as to include end game content/areas(though much of it was just spitballing ideas), the state these place are in tend to be more skeletal, with only the stuff that was shown off to the public(Tir na Nog, the swamps, the content shown off on kickstarter) being far polished than anything else. When you go past these areas then you start seeing crashes, missing sprites, music, events and even mechanics are said to be missing. Placeholder and developer tools litter the environment and key quests are horrifically broken to the point where some can't be completed or even started, and even if it DOES appear to work there's a good chance your game will softlock without debug.
Unsorted
Developer Comments
Also who is going to code all these things and fix all these issues? Me and GZ are gone and we are so loving salty we are never coming back to Barkley. I'm not bringing this up to say that hey we are some master game developers, no one else can do it but us. I'm bringing this up because we were there for years and know what systems there are, where most of the problems lay and that no one is allowed to fix them unless it's done 100% like it was envisioned in some fever dream. Who would ever volunteer, and then stay on board this project after this debacle was brought to light?
Some of the developers would later comment in the thread with ideas that were never made.
- Space Harrier B-Ball prototype
This never happened but we wanted to make a Mode7 cutscene where Hoopz sings among a golden barley field about finding out who he is. The song I think was meant at one point to be a cover of that Sting song with the lyrics changed to ’Fields of Barkley’. I made a Mode7 engine for this and also used it for a Space Harrier B-Ball prototype. My idea was the bball competition quests would all stay the same except when players are on court and ref starts the game you are suddenly taken to this absurd Space Harrier minigame where hoopz runs with a B-Ball through skyscrapers and enemies like T-rexes, helicopters etc and then dunks a hoop at the end. Then back to the court and players go ”Wow that was a good match!”. This was before TTX existed. After TTX and its quest happened I wanted to make a quest where Hoopz scoffs at the lame imposter b-ball (TTX) kids grow up with these days and finally gets a chance to play True B-Ball (Space Harrier). This never went beyond ideas stage because I could never write a quest to completion to save my life. Another addition to the Cool Ideas Landfill.
The first is actually present in the source code, though as a separate game maker project(in-game there is only a placeholder.). The second they would later post in the thread.
- Anonymous bball tactics developer
Hi, I'm the person who worked with ToG to make B-Ball Tactics. I worked on both B-Ball Tactics and Barkley 2 from March 2014 to around mid-2017, when I had to leave for various personal reasons. I was brought on the project about a year after releasing my own action RPG, also written in Game Maker. Being a huge fan of Barkle 1, I also backed Barkle 2 for $25 at the time. Structurally, the game I made was quite similar to how Barkley 2 was supposed to be in that it was a long-form indie RPG that was written in Game Maker. Thematically, the games are very different, but no matter how any RPG presents itself, it needs a lot of common components in order to make it playable, like a scripting system to handle cutscenes and other movement that takes place outside of player control, interfaces to manage your gameplay and to convey the game's writing, combat AI, motion planning, all stuff like this. In making my game, I got a ton of experience working on basically everything you would need to make an RPG work, so I thought I would be a good candidate. Plus, I'm also Gaming World scum, and that helped. So when ToG brought me on, I was excited to see how I could apply all of this knowledge. And I was a bit confused when I was asked to work on a minigame instead of the core game, but I rolled with it because the idea seemed interesting. I was tired of making grand decisions that contributed to a vision of my own making, and was happy to be of service to other people's ideas for a change. ~ Visions of B-Ball - a brief explanation of B-Ball Tactics ~ B-Ball Tactics is the working title. The final title was supposed to be "Tactics: Ballre". I will hereafter refer to this game as "TTX", because I am tired of typing the name out. We worked on TTX parallel to Barkley 2 proper, with the eventual goal of integrating a final version of it back into B2 as one of the overarching quests the player can complete. The idea is that one of the basketball fans in Tir na Nog would ask you if you wanted to help clean up a derelict b-ball court and play some of that classic b-ball, and if you agreed, you could choose to play a series of pickups over the course of the game that would eventually end in a gigantic tournament where you have the option of either throwing the final match for a game-breaking amount of money, or playing it straight. If you go through with it, you trigger one of the game's endings by accidentally doing a Chaos Dunk and destroying Necron 7 and everyone on board, including yourself (you were just so in the zone, you know). TTX was also designed from the ground up to be an asynchronous online multiplayer game that you could download for your phone, where you could play with friends or just random people online, similar to Hero Academy (or, going way back, play-by-email), where you would take as much time as you needed for a turn and when you're done, hand it off to the opponent. The idea here was two-fold: we could push out a demo to the backers as a way to ensure them that the game isn't dead, and we could put it on Steam and the mobile app stores for a couple bucks to accrue some chunk change for the rest of development. I don't know that it would have amounted to much, but it would've been something. Unlike the B2 version, the mobile version of this game was never intended to have AI, because you were supposed to play with other people over the wire exclusively. bhroom and I never really had the sort of head-smashing design confrontations that the other devs had because we largely agreed that TTX as implemented would be a fun game. The only real thing I pushed back on was when bhroom had an idea to add rideable mounts to TTX - depending on the implementation it would have completely broken everything I had done up to that point. As it stands, TTX is probably the most complete out of everything (fellow developers, please correct me if I'm wrong about any of this). It has a full gameplay loop, the vast majority of art is final, and it was very near feature-complete as of November 2015. The only things missing from the game are: - Zaubers (would affect players and the field in various ways sort of like Final Fantasy Tactics) - Navigation menus for getting the players in and out of matches - Matchmaking and online communication so that players can play together - we were supposed to use a cloud service called Flox for this - Various API integrations (GameCenter, Google Play, Steam) It's also a solid game with a great ruleset and is very enjoyable to play. As an attempt to translate basketball pickup games into a parody of tactical RPGs, it does a really good job. Again, this is bhroom's design, I was just brought on board to implement this ruleset. I eventually faded away in mid-2017 after working on a few Barkley 2 bits and pieces, because I had recently started a full-time programming job (cause the rent’s due) and that was taking up all my time. My life pretty much imploded much in the way that cboy's did in late 2016 as well, so that didn't really help things. At the beginning of this year, I checked the repo and it had plenty of commits, so I was sure that the game was still being worked on. ~ I can say that I don't think that any lack of communication to the backers was based out of malice, more that bhroom was waiting for that feature lock or progress milestone to be met that would make B2 worth showing off, and it never came. I offered to write some backer updates for TTX, and we both seemed to think that was a good idea, but it never happened. I do think that the backers and fans were dismissed for a long time, and it concerned me that whenever I would see somewhere where we were very plainly getting roasted by people who thought the project was dead, (whether it was here or on Kickstarter, or on rpgcodex or wherever else people are keeping tabs on this game), the answer that I got was basically to not worry about it, and that we'll just keep doing what we're doing and eventually the work we put into this game would become self-evident in the end. The way I see it, these issues between the core dev team and the project manager are now intractable. Maybe that wasn't the case a year ago, but it's obvious now - this game is not getting completed, and if it does, it'll be a shadow of the game that the Barkley 1 devs intended it to be. I would just let it die, Liam. I'm sorry that this has all fallen apart, but I think the best thing would be to just let it be. Release the source. You are, of course, free to continue to work on this if you're really that hellbent on it, but I don't know how you're going to continue without GZ, Laz and Bisse without scrapping all their work. This project in its current incarnation absolutely cannot continue without them. This sucks real bad, and I’m sorry to the backers and to everyone involved, especially Laz and Frankie, who really went above and beyond for this game.
They also made additional comments on the game's development, and their journal was uploaded as a 95 page .pdf file.
Fallout
As can been seen in the kickstarter updates, the scope of this game blew up with each passing update. Cboyardee explains:
Not helping matters was the absolute refusal from the project lead to walk back anything, meaning morale started to tank seriously as the game stopped being worked on and the staff in the project either walked away to deal with real life matters or explode out of frustration.
Another developer chimes in to talk about a boss mentioned on the kickstarter, which isn't in the game.
The crab boss which I made, for example, unless it has been worked on since I left (Based on GZ and Laz's past comments that bosses do not actually exist, I believe this is not the case), is not a boss that the game 'has'. It is a prototype with programmer art. The music is a Viewtiful Joe boss music rip. It is nowhere near any sort of completion. This is like saying that the game has a quest because it's been written down in Google Docs. It doesn't need "a little sprite love", it needs all the sprites, it needs sounds, it needs to actually be in the game instead of in a dev test room, and it just needs the work to take it from prototype enemy to actual fun enemy.
PAX 2013 "Gameplay Trailer One"
PAX 2015 Demo
To do: This is a VERY different game at this point. |
Early | Final |
---|---|
Barkley 2 HUD early.png | Barkley 2 HUD final.png |
- Menus are completely different, being far more simplified than the final, but also showcasing the Party members more prominently, a joke mechanic that has little bearing on the game proper.
Early Music Tracks
Prototype music tracks were shown off on youtube. Many of which are nowhere to be found inside the source code(which is still using placeholder tracks or complete silence in some cases.) but even the ones that are contain MANY differences:
- Crudster
Early | Final |
---|---|
The song is pitched higher than the final, and is ~13 seconds longer.
- punkboss
Early | Final |
---|---|
An earlier version of punkboss2, which is nowhere to be found in the source code.
- powerbadboy/powerbadboyreal
Early | Final |
---|---|
File:Barkley 2 powerbadboyrealearly.ogg |
Present in the game as mus_AIRuins_powerbadboy.ogg. The first draft uses chiptune tracker instruments, while "Real" uses higher quality synth.
- Johnathan Taylor Thomas 2
This, alongside an earlier version of Big Boy would be used for the kickstarter pitch video. It is unknown if it was ever intended for the game proper, or was cut but it is absent from the source code.